Posted by: shelagh ®
04/18/2004, 00:59:45
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Hi Nya! Great post. I related especially to your comment about a "lack of self-love in childhood". I suspect that's at the root of many of us believing we needed the so-called "love", "direction", "guidance", "clarity" , "the answer", "the Truth", etc etc etc that "knowlege" appeared to promise. "You are my mother, you are my father, you are my brother, you are my friend"...all that. To an orphan's heart, that is powerfully appealing! I spent several years in a branch of the National Children's Home in the UK during the 40's and 50's, so I was a VERY good candidate for all this! But as you say, we have to take responsibility for ourselves and our choices at some point, and luckily enough, I had chosen therapy and recovery resources the year before I "received knowledge", and I'm happy to say, recovery is the boat I've got both feet in now. And not only my feet--my intelligence, heart, life, intentions, responsibility, love, family, everything else as well! Enjoying the ride, for sure! Best to everyone! Shelagh
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Posted by: Roger eDrek ®
04/18/2004, 04:30:25
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and LORD! It's pretty big at 1.8 megabyte. Sorry. http://www.oz.net/~drek/video/prayer_worship_father_mother_lord_darshan.wmv (1.8M) Shelagh, this is interesting and fits right into what you are saying about the whole Arti "Father, Mother..." and how Maharaji was there allegedly able, willing, and ready to provide love, direction, and EVERYTHING for us. Totally scary! This is from Guru Puja 1979 - the HEAVY period.
Visit the House of Maharaji Drek to learn more about Maharaji
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Posted by: Susan ®
04/18/2004, 05:59:47
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To have Rawat quoting the words to Arti is VERY powerful rebuttal to the people who say it was just a traditional song we were not supposed to BELIEVE it! And there he is saying BELIEVE IT, LIVE IT..... How could anyone watch that and say we didn't understand what he meant? Thank you!!!!!
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Posted by: Bima ®
04/18/2004, 12:23:41
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Is that I am glad I don't have the Windoze Media Player plug in so I don't have to watch the lying deceitful turd.
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Posted by: Cynthia ®
04/18/2004, 03:40:23
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Nya, "Of course all the time, the responsibility lies solely with us." I completely disagree with this characterization of what happens to cult members. Many of the points you made are indeed valid, however, anyone can get recruited into a cult -- one doesn't have to have a bad childhood to become a targeted recruit. Because cult recruiting in all cults is systematic and planned, people who have particular vulnerabilalities can get recruited. Of course, the degree of how deep into the belief-system of the cult in which person becomes submerged is an important aspect of what they experience when they snap out of it and leave. For instance, I recently read Captive Hearts, Captive Minds by Madeline Tobias. She and her co-writer made a point of saying that those cult members who make it into the most intimate and secret inner circle of a cult leader, and then leave the cult are those who may suffer the most [emphasis on the word "may"]. Why? Because in the exiting process they discover some things about themselves that are difficult to face: guilt over putting aside their original (pre-cult) morals and ethics to benefit the cult leader, and great pain over having played a role in deceiving the general population of the cult. Also they can go through intense periods of remorse for having done things that may have been illegal. "I guess I have learnt to take responsibility for my own life now, and it is wonderful. I am having a great time, really enjoying my life, and exploring to the limits what I can do with it." Yes, only when someone leaves a cult and processes out all the mind control can they (finally) take responsibility for their lives post-cult. This doesn't excuse the cultic behavior, but that's the only time when reason is reclaimed and facing one's own questionable behavior begins. It's not a black and white issue. Plus, no one actually joins a cult. People are recruited. Best, Cynthia
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Posted by: Susan ®
04/18/2004, 05:48:31
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Yes, I agree no one sets out to join a cult. I especially agree or agree with your disagreement with this part: "Of course all the time, the responsibility lies solely with us." I completely disagree with this characterization of what happens to cult members. Many of the points you made are indeed valid, however, anyone can get recruited into a cult -- one doesn't have to have a bad childhood to become a targeted recruit. Because cult recruiting in all cults is systematic and planned, people who have particular vulnerabilalities can get recruited. Of course, the degree of how deep into the belief-system of the cult in which person becomes submerged is an important aspect of what they experience when they snap out of it and leave. Again, Nya, I love to read your posts, and I didn't really even pick up on the self blaming aspect there. We do need to take responsibilty for our own lives and decisions, but there are times that bad things happen we don't ask for or deserve. Most people I have read join cults as college age people, usually smarter than average, and usually they are susceptable to the cult if they just experienced a major unsettling life event, a breakup, death in the family are examples. What I saw in your post was one of the things I got out of the cult and needed at the time, love and acceptance, and a sense of structure in my life, I liked all the rules. That way I didn't have to figure out this great big scary world for myself.
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Posted by: Cynthia ®
04/18/2004, 21:46:57
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I wasn't trying to cult you off at the knees here Nya. My apologies to you if that's how I came across. Sometimes I do sound too harsh.
My point is that every person who gets caught up in a personality cult gets involved to varying degrees based upon their vulnerability at the time of recruitment and the depth that someone buys into the belief-system or religion of the cult.
I do agree that part of the mind-control involves self-delusion and deferring to the person in authority. However, that's how personality cults work. The dynamic is very similar from cult to cult because the leader is the focal point of the group and he wields all of the power, control, and gets most of the money.
That doesn't mean that those premies at the top or within the inner circle don't bear a great amount of responsibility when they do things such as writing the FAQs on EV-Australia's that state we are a hate-group. Or if they commit crimes on behalf of the cult leader.
Looking back at the time I spent at DECA, I've come to realize that I had to lie every day of the week for Rawat while I was there. I've had to come to terms that I also broke the law for Rawat in a big way by being compliant to him. I think that's where congnitive dissonance plays a huge role. I've had to learn how to forgive myself for doing that to myself. It's difficult to explain.
Susan, you were a teen when you got involved. By the time I received K I was twenty-two -- an adult. By the time I was at DECA and breaking the law for Rawat, I was twenty-five. I knew better, but I was so trapped inside of Maharaji's World at the time I didn't feel as if I had a choice (I didn't want a choice -- I considered him my Lord). Somewhere deep inside my conscience I knew that what I did was wrong, but the mind-control prohibited me from facing that, so I did what was asked of me anyway. It's not easy to admit this because I can't stand lying and it's against my real nature as a person to behave immorally or especially to break a law. And I was never X-rated or a so-called PAM.
Hope that clarifies my points above.
Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Apr 18, 2004, 21:54:57
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Posted by: Susan ®
04/18/2004, 04:20:51
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I see that as a lot of why I got involved. Also, at the time I got involved Miami was a small ordinary premie community ( ordinary I guess in terms of premies, still wierd as heck in reality ) but things were very personal. I was only 13 and the premies always made me feel special I had found "knowledge" so young. They hugged me all the time and I loved that. Premies used to be, are they still, very huggy. I felt so welcome and wanted and valued. It was a huge hook for me. I used to go to the ashram everyday after school to do service. The first thing I would do is do my homework on the couch in the ashram living room. Quite often, Randy Prouty would come from his duties as community coordnator and help me with my algebra. I remember at the time really liking him so much because of that, and that he insisted the ashram have Newsweek ( like it was okay to be a premie and still have an awareness of the goings on of the outside world ) and the he would make fun of some of the premie trips like "macroneurotics". It took some of the edge off the weirdness. After I finished my homework I would help with dinner, cleaning, laundry, ironing___I burned a few Dhotis and Sari's of Mahatmas who came through, those things were HARD to iron! Then I would either take the bus home or if invited stay for dinner at the ashram and then satsang. My poor mom had to fight me tooth and nail to wash a dish at home. I never ironed ANYTHING! I was a total brat at home. Also a tired brat, always falling asleep during my hour before school of meditation and my hour before bed. That was 1975, I got K January of that year. Then in 76 things changed a bit. I did service at the YWCA after school. That was where the office was. That was the year things were toned down. I was very happy that year too. I liked the toned down. Everyone was still really encouraging about school. The programs became recieving lines instead af darshan lines. Premies were encouraged to be less cultish. Apparently that was Mishler's influence. That summer my mom, sister and I went to Denver. One week or so we were tourists. I have told the story before, but it is so funny, my mom, sister ( both non premies, actually hated it) agreed after I begged that on our tour of Denver and Boulder we must include the KIttredge Building. This was the then headquarters of DLM. So we all walk up to the building and who to my wondering eyes is standing there but Randy, who had since moved on from Miami to higher service, and I was thrilled and was introducing him to my mom and sister. He on the other hand seemed anxious as could be, and said, stand right there, hold still, Maharaj Ji's coming. We did as told. Instantly Maharaj Ji and an entourage came around a corner. As he passed my mom very loudly says "he's SO short", which is exactly what my evil mind was thinking. But I was HORRIFIED my mother said it and that he probably heard it! So then my mom let me stay while they went on the San Francisco. I stayed in the care of Prakesh Bai in the ashram, who in every way has always been a nice person. She was an "ex" before I left, and I became afraid of her, sad, because she had always been incredibly nice to me. In Denver, I learned the ashrams were referred to by their street numbers. I was staying at a sort of traditional ashram I guess. But I went to visit Randy at the security ashram, I don't recall the number, let's say 1462, and stayed and said hello for a short time, and went back to the other ashram go get ready for the program that night. Another WEIRD thing happened. I always volunteered for service, usually security as I saw it as prestigous, at any program. It was more fun to a 14 year old than sitting there. So the guy handing out the assignments says to me "didn't I see you at 1462 today", I said "yes". I ended up as one of those people right by the stage staring out at the audience like a secret service man scanning the crowd. So I did my best imitation of such. I was supposed to also stop people without proper security from backstage access. I blew my fourteen year old not really a security premie cover when I stopped Bob Mishler! He was nice and showed me his pass. But the guy with me goes, do you know who that was? I said no. He said "Bob Mishler" in a tone that also meant you fool! I think it is a funny story. Maybe I will save this and work on a Journey. Of course as we all know, Mishler soon left in disgust, the Atlantic city program December 1976? marked the beginning of the spiral into an incredible give it all up for the Lord devotional period which I stayed with until Philly in 78/79. The Mala Dance.
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Posted by: Gregg ®
04/18/2004, 09:10:43
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Yeah, whatcha said. The cult experience, for me, was really an internalized psychospiritual journey. Despite the fact that there was a Real Guru Person and a Real Cult Dynamic. Basically, at the time, it was all about internal states. There were other gurus around who probably had more authentic spiritual attainment. But they were MORE exploitave than our Playboy Guru! Enlightenment. HA HA!
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