Franky Boy! Thought we'd lost you. hopefully it didn't take that amount of time to think up your response ;-).

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The training is a course of instruction. Which means there is a specific amount paid for the training you will get. (I had to include for Roberts sake) If the course was paid in full you would not need a contract.  If you could pay for your car in full...you wouln't need a contract either.

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Ok, but if you agree that you're going to pay a certain amount, and agree to it in contract, why do OYD instructors continue to ration out instruction based on amount paid against the contract? Your car analogy is spot on, but you don't then apply it to the rest of the argument. When I buy a car with financing, and sign a contract, they give me the whole car! not a wheel, then an antenna, etc. They trust me to pay it off, and give me the car in full. If I were just buying a piece of the car at a time, I wouldn't need a contract. So, if you ration out what's been paid for, you don't need contracts, because you are then covered. Why can't you extend that level of trust to your students, who are trusting you, that GMAC will to every schlep who meets the credit requirements to buy a car?

I don't lots of time to spend on these sites.

You are right you would not recieve the wheel then the door etc when buying a car.  You want to drive the thing you are buying.    With training, you can't absorb all of the movement at one time. It needs to be passed out accordingly.  This is not a hard concept to understand.  If you are making a monthly payment, why cant you get movement on a monthly basis.  Also, youa re assuming that it is only movement you are paying for.  if so, this is incorrect.  If a student is unable to pick up large amounts of movement, then why try to push it down their throat.  The intructors balance this by spending more time with the student rather than giving movement.

You feel your quality of instruction went down.  That is unfortunate. I have spoken with students who stayed on the National Prpogram and felt the training was less than the International level.  I asked them what were they expecting?  The level they received was the National level, not the International Level and there would be a difference.  They would be learning according to the course curriculum.  There was an upgrade to the training.

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You seem to be misguided on your understanding of teaching in OYD, as well as other statements you have made. Let me ask you, why should an instructor teach you more?  If you are on a course of instruction and you haven't paid for the next level, why should you get it?  How do you now what you supposed to get.  Did you ever ask what you would be learning at your rank (probably not).  And yet you assume you are supposed to get it. I understand people want something for nothing.  But that doesn't mean they are going to get it.

All I can do is speak from my experience. I know what I saw, I know what I heard. The quality of my instruction PLUMMETTED when International training came out. Are you telling me that was by design? The only thing I cared about was getting Pal Gae, I did not care how many forms I had, just that what I had I learned well. What I am saying is that I didn't  continue to get the level of attention I recieved initially when I refused to kick in more greenbacks. That's not wanting something for nothing, that's wanting consistent service.

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What is unfrortunate Robert, is that you were so focused on money you missed the point of the upgrade.

When I look at the difference, it is less expensive to be on the International level than the National Level. in addition, you get more training.

I don't know what happened to you and your training. I am sorry if things did not work out for you. 

I do not agree with many of you statements on this site.  They are, IMO over exaggerated and way out of proportion. 

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:=Thanks for sharing, Ronin. Where did you study? And what are you studying now? I'm between schools (job, life, living space in turmoil), but looking for something along the lines of Bagua, or Kung Fu. := :=If you read some of the discussions bellow between Frank, KC and myself, you'll see that they equate dollars paid to commitment. And, notice that Frank (Who I believe is the 3rd degree head instructor of Seattle's Queen Anne OYD school). won't answer this simple question: If the Moo won't teach movement until it is paid for, why do they need contracts at all? If they don't teach until they get the benjamins (which was my experience), then they should be completely covered at all times. := :=:=Hi, :=:= I trained in OYD and had a similar experience to Robert. The high pressure sales pitches were obvious and pretty insulting. Since I wasn't on the Two Year plan I would be left to practice the movement I had while the Two Year students (who paid more to get more covered faster) would be taught the next steps. :=:= This was always prefaced with a backhanded comment to point out that these were "deserving students" and that I was not. Having had previous martial arts experience I have found that "deserving" simply meant "hard working." I had a bad feeling about the school since the time I asked how much the black belt program cost and was told "why don't we discuss that after you've been in the program for awhile." :=:= I agree that the movement was exceptional, but you know what, the good stuff was primarily bagua and taiji, which can be taken together at many schools for considerably less money. I'm paying $70 a month for my training now instead of more than $250. And you know what? When we have a MONTH LONG workshop it costs registered students an extra $10, not $350 for half a day.