| Posted by MH , 04/23/2002, 17:07:39 | Archive |
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| Re: overview of Kidd class DDG combat system (1/2) -- MH | |||
| Posted by MH , 04/23/2002, 17:08:53 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
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| Re: overview of Kidd class DDG combat system (2/2) -- MH | |||
| Posted by cpt plt , 04/24/2002, 07:48:33 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
TAIPEI, April 24 (AFP) - 06:14 GMT - Taiwan's military has decided to buy four second-hand Kidd class destroyers from the
US, despite criticism of the potential costs, it was reported Wednesday.
The defense ministry plans to propose to cabinet the inclusion of the expense in the government's budget for the next
fiscal year, the Liberty Times said.
The four Kidd-class destroyers, estimated to cost 28 billion Taiwan dollars (800 million US) in total, were offered to Taiwan at
bargain prices ranging from 10 to 20 percent of the ships' list price.
But the arms deal failed to win concerted support from the last parliament. Critics worried the second-hand warships, which
would require that the navy shell out large amounts to arm and outfit them, would be a "bottomless pit".
Opponents also insisted the 9,000-tonne warships could easily emerge as targets of any Chinese attacks in case of war.
To overcome opposition, the vice defense minister, Lee Hai-tung, and the deputy naval commander-in-chief, Kao Yang,
briefed the parliament on the controversial arms deal on Tuesday, the newspaper said.
"The purchase of Kidd-class destroyers can strengthen the island's air and naval defense capability against military threat
from rival China, which is expected to further loom large between 2005 and 2010," they said.
The warships, to be kitted with Standard II air defense missiles and three-dimensional radar, would provide the navy with a
platform capable of conducting simultaneous anti-air, anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, they said.
To clear the way for the destroyers -- which would be Taiwan's biggest warships -- the navy has embarked on personnel
training projects, and the expansion of the Tsoying naval base in southern Taiwan.
The first two Kidd class destroyers are expected by 2005, according to an article in Jane's Defence Weekly published last
month.
The four destroyers separately joined the US navy in 1981 and 1982 and were decommissioned in 1998 and 1999 after
serving only half their service life. Since then they have been in storage.
The Jane's Defense Weekly has said the procurement of the Kidd-class destroyers is essential to Taiwan's future hopes to
buy destroyers equipped with the more advanced Aegis radar system.
Taiwan must first prove it can satisfactorily integrate and operate the sophiscated radar and weapons systems provided by
the Kidd-class destroyers, before the US is satisfied it can handle the Aegis platform.
The Kidd-class destroyers were part of the most comprehensive arms package to Taiwan for almost a decade when US
President George W. Bush announced it April last year.
Also included in the offer were eight diesel submarines and 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft.
The deal, which infuriated China, followed a two-year US review of Taiwan's airforce and navy.
China and Taiwan split in 1949 at the end of a civil war, but Beijing has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan if it declares
independence.
US arms sales to Taiwan are guided by the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act, which charges the United States with providing the
island with the means to defend itself.
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| Re: new "old" news -- cpt plt | |||
| Posted by Top Gunner , 04/25/2002, 01:05:46 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
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| Re: Is RoCN still considering buying Aegis-equipped warships? -- Top Gunner | |||
| Posted by Raymond Cheung , 04/25/2002, 10:51:35 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
For an intelligent discussion of the topic, one needs to know the background of these different designs. The NATO navies wanted a frigate that could take care of itself against a modern antiship missile threat. That meant ESSM and radars that will support that missile. That was the old NAAWS program that has now branched off into various national and multi-national programs. The requirement was to have a long range "Volume Search Radar" (VSR) and a "Multi-functional Radar" (MFR) to manage missile engagements.
The Dutch and Germans went with the LCF/F124 design using the SMART-L as the VSR and the APAR as the MFR. The 48-tube VLS would hold ESSM in quad-packs and some SM-2 for both point- and limited area air defense.
The Spanish decided to go with a lower risk option, using the proven SPY-1D on their F-100. It also has 48 tubes for a combo of SM-2 and ESSM. The Norwegians went with an even smaller design for their Nansen class using the smaller SPY-1F and a smaller number of VLS tubes for ESSM only.
The ROCN have a different requirement. We have a fleet of general purpose and ASW frigates that need area air defense cover. There is also - as of this time - no access to ESSM (a multi-national program - any nation in the consortium could veto export to the ROC under PRC pressure). There are ways around that but it is still a source of uncertainties.
That is what drives the ROCN's preference for the DDG-51 Flight IIA Burkes. Lots of SM-2's to provide medium to long range anti-air and anti-missile defense. Yes, I said "anti-missile". The ChiCom's seem to think (or want you to believe) the SM-2 is no good against missiles. "Less capable" than ESSM and RAM at very close range may be correct but I've seen plenty of videos of SM-2 popping antiship missile targets - including supersonic seaskimmers like Vandals. Add RAM Block II on the Burkes and they'll be fine against "leakers" at close range also.
The ROCN operating philosophy and requirements have evolved since the defunct PFG-2 Flight II design. I believe the current course is correct and they should stay on it. Any political pressure to pick something else which is off their "game plan" should be resisted vigorously!
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| Re: Different designs -- Raymond Cheung | |||
| Posted by Top Gunner , 04/25/2002, 13:29:33 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
I was thinking that F-100 was probably less manpower intensive. You pointed out the trouble with my thought, however- whether Knox is replaced by F-310 or not, someone's gotta cover them(and Kang Ding) when it comes down to area air defense protection, someting F-100, with a smaller number of payloads, probably cannot provide.
The reason why I mentioned F-310 is that I thought that F-310 is primarily for ASW, hence the smaller SPY-1F and ESSM-only SAM payload. The SPY-1F might help when paired up with Cheng Kung if CEC is introduced in the future(probably far future if ever, though) as well.
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| Re: overview of Kidd class DDG combat system (1/2) -- MH | |||
| Posted by tc pons , 04/25/2002, 00:11:54 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
I found these link on the net about the Kidds
http://www.etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/Politics/2002/04/25/1019698313.htm
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| Re: Links about the Kidd -- tc pons | |||
| Posted by Tonz , 04/25/2002, 01:04:57 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
They should get their heads checked before they make stupid claims saying the Kidds are "too expensive" or "too old"
Whatever they're smoking for breakfast, it's not making them any smarter.
"Opponents also insisted the 9,000-ton warships could easily emerge as targets of any Chinese attacks in case of war."
I wonder if Tawian should import some opponents from China because these opponents are not doing the 'don't buy' camp of this issue any justice. What the hell is the relavence of that sentance anway?
Even for someone like me who barely knows anything about military stuff knows Kidds are capable warships... So why can't politicans read up a bit? Even theeasy to find FAS website offers something. Seriously, there should be a law requiring politicans to be spanked in public if they make such stupid statements without first doing some homework, that way at least thetax payingpublic gets entertainment if nothing else out of our politicans.
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| Re: What's the job discription for ROC politicans??? -- Tonz | |||
| Posted by CFF , 04/25/2002, 10:36:28 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
There are also many political motives to oppose Kidds.
For examples:
Kidd is cheap if one looks at what it can do, but
it's still a large sum of money. Therefore many
people would have reason not to like it (Other military
services, people who wants ROCN to have smaller navy,
people who wants to buy weapons of more political
significance such as Aegis ships... etc)
Also, let's not forget there are people who opposes
Taiwan Defense, whether due to unification motives or
left's other emphasis to budget.
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| Re: Links about the Kidd -- tc pons | |||
| Posted by Alex Chiu , 04/25/2002, 10:04:21 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
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| Re: type 36 and type 77 Perry? -- Alex Chiu | |||
| Posted by Raymond Cheung , 04/26/2002, 00:11:04 | Top of Thread | Archive | |
I am not familiar with these designations. The FFG-7 hulls were classified in "Flights" and the shipboard equipment configurations using "Baseline" numbers.
Flight I was the original short-hull version limited to operating the SH-2 LAMPS I. The USN has retired most of their FFG-7 Flight I ships, some being transferred to friendly navies eg. Egypt, Turkey and Bahrain etc.
The USN Naval Reserve Force (NRF) will replace all their short-hull Flight I ships with 8 long-hull Flight III (LAMPS III capable) units by FY 03.
Of the 22 USN FFG-7's retained in active service, the most capable are the 12 "Baseline 8" units with long-hulls, LAMPS III, SQQ-89 underwater combat systems and CORT (Mk92 mod.6) fire control system.
As more DDG-51's are commissioned, it is possible that the USN would decommission the 8 NRF ships and make them available for transfer to the ROCN (replacing them with the non-CORT long-hulls currently in active service).
The 8 NRF long-hulls are good ASW ships but are inferior to the PFG-2 which have CORT and SM-1 Blk VIB much more capable of dealing with sea skimmers.
SM-2 capabilities are only in the design stage for the FFG-7's. The Aussies are reconsidering adding this to their FFG-7 PUP mid-life upgrade due to start in 03. One reason may be that the Koreans have already paid for development of WDS Mk14 rehosted on a single board and ADA for their KDX-2. This upgrade would be relatively easy to incorporate into the Mk92 mod.12 system chosen for PUP.
The RAN had previously decided against a radar upgrade in PUP because they did not plan to get SM-2. Now that they've reconsidered, the question is what would they do with the radars. SPS-48E is the minimum for getting decent performance out of the SM-2. In addition, there are reports that the RAN is consideirng replacing the Mk13 GMLS with the Mk26. Sounds strange but one has to consider that replacing the more compact Mk13 with the Mk41 VLS would mean 8 fewer m